Sci Leaders Very Unbalanced In UU

[omicron]

It Kills me that in making UU you are striving for balance Yet Everybody uses Sci LEaders Which Greatly unbalances the game. Its the same thing as ( Lets give a random player Pyramids at the begining of the game). Nobody should get that power early in the game. The game is almost over right away so what is the point. If you get a good land and a good civ then boom you won the dice roll and have a sci leader. Dumb Dumb Dumb for a quick uu game. Yet I hear everybody has been playing this rule for years, and they wont play without it. Sci LEaders and UU dont mix. They are more for an Epic Long game.

[Yilar]

If it was up to me SGL's would be banned from all games. They really do nothing but give an unfair advantage to someone. The early pyramids is of course the most extreme. The later sgl's are only so and so, cause the wonders are only so and so. Pyramids is the very best wonder, cause of the fact that you can build it so early, the best wonder if all available is hoover (assuming you have a few rivers), but it doesn't become buildable till mid-indy...

[Avogadro]

But isnt it nice to reward someone going to philo instead of those hoarding mucho gold for upgrades? You may get lucky but I wouldnt bet on a science leader. It's alot like poppign with workers turn 3, you may pop settler or lose 4 crucial turns of worker action.

[Yilar]

avogadro said:

But isnt it nice to reward someone going to philo instead of those hoarding mucho gold for upgrades? You may get lucky but I wouldnt bet on a science leader. It's alot like poppign with workers turn 3, you may pop settler or lose 4 crucial turns of worker action.

Free pyramids is a lot bigger than popped settler. And usually people don't tech more than everyone else. It is pure luck wether you get one or not. It's not like you see people going medevil cause they get a chance to pop a sgl..

[Ghost]

well if you ban sgl's you may as well ban picket fences also. Just cause you got early sgl don't mean you will win the game. Yes they are hard to over come but lets face it if u are saving gold for upgrades well the other guy is teching your odds of killing him is alot better. Stop cring and start killing.

[thequeen]

I usually only get pyras with horrible land and the desert so... it varies , nothing that big to ban

[Yilar]

nightfalls said:

well if you ban sgl's you may as well ban picket fences also. Just cause you got early sgl don't mean you will win the game. Yes they are hard to over come but lets face it if u are saving gold for upgrades well the other guy is teching your odds of killing him is alot better. Stop cring and start killing.

Can't really compare a legit tactic with a pure luck based thing. Picket fencing usually takes as many units to do as the enemy is bringing, cause you have to cover a pretty big area so he doesn't double move, assuming you dont bring 10 boats. Sgl's on the oher hand are pure luck and can be compared with popping settlers, just a lot more extreme. You can litterly cruise to the win with the pyramids cause your growth will be so superior.

[Avogadro]

Kinda like cow+game cap?

Alot of this game is luck. I find it fun to see a leader pop up, especially if you think you are in deep #$@# land wise. Win a 1v1 battle on turn 15 and you got half the map to grow into. Get gold and iron when neigbor has nothing and you are sure to kill.

We are playing alot of uber UU as of late. A lot of fun but.....you can upgrade to UU which should be disabled. You can make towns of swords in golden age, save gold, hook resouce and upgrade 40 gallics asap for 15 gold each (same cost as horse upgrade). I like science leaders better as I will grow as long as map lets me (rather buld then kill usually)

[Yilar]

avogadro said:

Kinda like cow+game cap?

Alot of this game is luck. I find it fun to see a leader pop up, especially if you think you are in deep #$@# land wise. Win a 1v1 battle on turn 15 and you got half the map to grow into. Get gold and iron when neigbor has nothing and you are sure to kill.

We are playing alot of uber UU as of late. A lot of fun but.....you can upgrade to UU which should be disabled. You can make towns of swords in golden age, save gold, hook resouce and upgrade 40 gallics asap for 15 gold each (same cost as horse upgrade). I like science leaders better as I will grow as long as map lets me (rather buld then kill usually)

It's usually not that way.... The guy with the bad land techs slower and decreases his chances of getting the sgl therefore.

As for your observations on the iron, you're wrong. archers/warrior combo can still kill the swords. While you're spending your cash on upgrades, the other guy can build less useless cities and just increase lux and focus more on building units, in this case archers and warriors. Upgrading can be a usefull tool, but saying it is a certain win is not true, upgrading is only really dangerous in teamers as you can upgrade an extraordinaire amount of units (good example is gallic upgrade).

[sdn26]

just play newancient if u want balance game (in that scenario to build pyra u need at least 2 granary) UU very unbalanced like all other scenario for exaplme agri traits unbalace a lot the game....
terrain can give unbalance game too if u have very bad start for example no water near all desert and no agri traits...about Picket try to do it in newancient and u will die agaist anciebt bersek

for that l did neancient where for sure there is still different luck but u will never suck to the start

[omicron]

The point is that UU is supose to be a balanced game. There will always be some luck involved but dont add a rule to make the game luckier. Yilar and I are right in saying that pyramids is too strong for a player to have in the begining of a game. The last game i played a player got pyramids in the 20th turn with leader and his scored sored to the top.

[sdn26]

ok lets remove scl
maya vs korea do u think its balanced?

the point is this UU like all other scenario are not very balanced...but sometime l like to play unbalanced too...for exaple l like the full cton when lm korea near tecs and celts ...its not balanced but its very fun cause if u kill tecs with korea

[Yilar]

sdn26 said:

ok lets remove scl
maya vs korea do u think its balanced?

the point is this UU like all other scenario are not very balanced...but sometime l like to play unbalanced too...for exaple l like the full cton when lm korea near tecs and celts ...its not balanced but its very fun cause if u kill tecs with korea

Let me put it this way... Maya vs Korea, who is more likely to get a sgl in 1v1 with exactly the same land (average land with fresh water)?

Spoiler: It is maya, the increased growth from agri means that maya will get the lionshare of the techs first, if both civs go the same tech path, then korea should be a couple of turns behind, simple because maya can outgrow and outproduce korea with the agri trait. The point is that it makes the stronger even stronger. SGL is one of those things we can balance, so why not? We can't remove freebies (well we can remove it, but it would make the exp trait utterly useless) and cow starts.

The equal starts are BY FAR the most fun.

[omicron]

Well Yilar Every game I host I put No SGL. Then a few will be happy but one will say something and leave my game then the others will follow leaving me alone with a waisted 2 hours putting together this game. I am always willing to have a vote to use SGL, but some wont stand for a vote they say its a must have rule and act like babies and wont play. Is it a must have rule? I dont know. If it is I wish I could talk to the guy who made it. Lets design a new scenario where 1 random civ gets 1 free nuke, that would be better than using SGL's because at least you dont have to play the whole game.

[civrat]

First off...if you are the host you dictate the parameters of the game if you dont want to play with SGL's dont.

Second off...playing this game for alomost 5 years now and youre the first Ive heard biatching about SGL's.