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Post by Gracchus on Sept 19, 2007 22:18:36 GMT -5
I understand the situation just fine and race has nothing to do with it. The bottom line is that that the US decided to bomb innocent Serb civilians in favor of refugees from a Stalinist regime who took over a region of the former Yugoslavia that the Serbs had a legitimate claim of soverienty over. This is factually incorrect. Check your history. I don't think this has anything to do with the discussion. I fully recognize they were an ally in WWII. Again, so was the USSR, and Germany, Japan, and Italy were not. What is the point? |
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Post by whiplash on Sept 19, 2007 22:31:36 GMT -5
I stand by my "history"
On the other matter, the point is that the Serbs made meaningful contributions to the allied victory while the Albanians did not. Maybe you have no sense of gratitude; but I do.
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Post by Gracchus on Sept 19, 2007 22:46:45 GMT -5
I will break down your "history":
1. The Albanians in Kosovo were not "refugees from a Stalinist regime" ( I assume you mean Albania?)
Most ethnic Albanians came to Kosovo hundreds of years ago (Albania was not Stalinist then). There have been waves of both Serbs and Albanians into Kosovo for centuries.
Kosovo did not want to join Stalinist Albania. That was never the issue. They only wanted independence and sovereignty over there own land. Is not wanting to be ruled by another country really that bad?
Or is it only bad if you are a Muslim?
2. They did not "take over" a region of the former Yugoslavia. Kosovo was an autonomous state of the Yugoslavian Federation. You have it backwards. The Serbs, under (our enemy) Milosevic, asserted a claim on Kosovo when Yugoslavia fell apart.
3. Kosovo had a legitimate claim of sovereignty over Kosovo. Your assertion that Serbia's claim is more legitimate is counter-intitive and rather silly.
4. Serbia was the USSR's ally, not ours.
Forunately, "gratitude" for a war that took place over 60 years ago does not shape our foreign policy.
Under your "gratitude" theory, should we invade Germany?
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Post by jeffmann77 on Sept 19, 2007 23:09:54 GMT -5
I stand by my "history" On the other matter, the point is that the Serbs made meaningful contributions to the allied victory while the Albanians did not. Maybe you have no sense of gratitude; but I do. they got invaded by the nazis like every other eastern european country. i have a feeling that they fought back out of their own interests rather than some sense of allegiance to the U.S. or britain. The serbs (the country didnt even exist for most of the past 50 years) have never been any kind of serious US ally. this stuff you're talking about them being our allies and deserving our gratitude is baloney |
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Post by BoNeHeD on Sept 20, 2007 3:15:00 GMT -5
3 carrier battle groups are now in striking range of Iran. Alot of cruise missles and stealth aircraft are within range of knocking Iran back to the stone age. This limited first strike would destabilize the radical regime and promote a more democratic nation to rise up.
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Post by whiplash on Sept 20, 2007 8:51:12 GMT -5
I will break down your "history": 1. The Albanians in Kosovo were not "refugees from a Stalinist regime" ( I assume you mean Albania?) Most ethnic Albanians came to Kosovo hundreds of years ago (Albania was not Stalinist then). There have been waves of both Serbs and Albanians into Kosovo for centuries. Kosovo did not want to join Stalinist Albania. That was never the issue. They only wanted independence and sovereignty over there own land. Is not wanting to be ruled by another country really that bad? Or is it only bad if you are a Muslim? 2. They did not "take over" a region of the former Yugoslavia. Kosovo was an autonomous state of the Yugoslavian Federation. You have it backwards. The Serbs, under (our enemy) Milosevic, asserted a claim on Kosovo when Yugoslavia fell apart. 3. Kosovo had a legitimate claim of sovereignty over Kosovo. Your assertion that Serbia's claim is more legitimate is counter-intitive and rather silly. 4. Serbia was the USSR's ally, not ours. Forunately, "gratitude" for a war that took place over 60 years ago does not shape our foreign policy. Under your "gratitude" theory, should we invade Germany? If anybody wants to see the real story they can find it here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_status_of_KosovoConsistently, throughout all of the permutations, the International Community recognized the soverignty of Serbia over Kosovo. |
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Post by Stormbringer on Sept 20, 2007 11:35:03 GMT -5
3 carrier battle groups are now in striking range of Iran. Alot of cruise missles and stealth aircraft are within range of knocking Iran back to the stone age. This limited first strike would destabilize the radical regime and promote a more democratic nation to rise up. I think that if it's gonna happen,it'll be during this administration. GWB is just retarded enough to think it'll lead to a 'positive' legacy or immortality for him |
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Post by civrat on Sept 20, 2007 11:41:00 GMT -5
3 carrier battle groups are now in striking range of Iran. Alot of cruise missles and stealth aircraft are within range of knocking Iran back to the stone age. This limited first strike would destabilize the radical regime and promote a more democratic nation to rise up. Why do we insist on thinking that people in other countries want what we have... |
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Post by heroray on Sept 20, 2007 13:01:37 GMT -5
maybe we could Help Iran with their quest for Weapons of mass destrution and just hand them a couple ?  |
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Post by rodrigom on Sept 20, 2007 13:06:08 GMT -5
5 bucks Bush not stupid enough to start a war against Iran
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Post by dunedain on Sept 20, 2007 14:18:48 GMT -5
3 carrier battle groups are now in striking range of Iran. Alot of cruise missles and stealth aircraft are within range of knocking Iran back to the stone age. This limited first strike would destabilize the radical regime and promote a more democratic nation to rise up. Why do we insist on thinking that people in other countries want what we have... Sorry dish, but what are you referring to? If you are referring to "democracy", it was hanging by a chad down there until the recent introduction of computerized vote tallying ..... completely untraceable and supposedly programmed by an "impartial" contractor...if there ever was such a thing. I have followed US elections since kennedy. From your mainsteam media, hunter s thompson's "fear and loathing on the campaign trail 1972", the McLaughlin group, etc. Many sources. While kennedy's and gwb's elections both appear to have been tainted, and big money has had an inordinate influence in US elctions since.... well since WW2 anyways...probably before....at least there was a paper trail and some recourse for recounts, etc. Under your new system...who knows what the real tally was after any election? Press a button and the computer will regurgitate the same number. Reclaim your democracy if possible americans. Bring back an auditable ballot or you have nothing but your faith in the ballot programmers' ability and impartiality for electoral peace of mind. Dune |
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Post by Gracchus on Sept 20, 2007 15:00:48 GMT -5
First, you offer no support at all for what you have claimed earier re: the Mexican/Albanian comparison, any of your immigration claims, or any solid reason (other than they were allied with the USSR in WW2) that we should be supporting the Kremlin-backed Serbs in this dispute. Second, did you read this Wiki article? It pretty much sums up what I have been saying -- namely, that prior to the YU breakup, Kosovo was an autonomous state in the Yugoslavian Federation (had an equal veto power to Serbia). Milosevic made his career out of demonizing the Albanians in Kosovo based on the issue of denying Kosovar autonomy. It is unfortunate you can't see through this crap. Currrently, Serbia has only nominal sovereignty over Kosovo. The have no real authority or real sovereignty. They were given this as an appeasement to Milosevic and Russia, who promised to veto any resolution supporting Kosovar independence. So... 1) you have not countered one of my arguments, nor have you provided any proof (at all) for any of yours. 2) you appear to be supporting Russia over the interests of the US. The US backed a proposal to grant Kosovo sovereignty, but did not push it because Russia holds a seat on the security council. Again, Serbia is Russia's ally, not ours. 3. Your statement: "Consistently, throughout all of the permutations, the International Community recognized the soverignty of Serbia over Kosovo." is dead wrong. It even suggests this in the article you just pasted. What would Reagan think about all this? |
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Post by Gracchus on Sept 20, 2007 15:04:29 GMT -5
Why do we insist on thinking that people in other countries want what we have... Sorry dish, but what are you referring to? If you are referring to "democracy", it was hanging by a chad down there until the recent introduction of computerized vote tallying ..... completely untraceable and supposedly programmed by an "impartial" contractor...if there ever was such a thing. I have followed US elections since kennedy. From your mainsteam media, hunter s thompson's "fear and loathing on the campaign trail 1972", the McLaughlin group, etc. Many sources. While kennedy's and gwb's elections both appear to have been tainted, and big money has had an inordinate influence in US elctions since.... well since WW2 anyways...probably before....at least there was a paper trail and some recourse for recounts, etc. Under your new system...who knows what the real tally was after any election? Press a button and the computer will regurgitate the same number. Reclaim your democracy if possible americans. Bring back an auditable ballot or you have nothing but your faith in the ballot programmers' ability and impartiality for electoral peace of mind. Dune We are trying Dune....we are trying... Speaking of democracy...why don't you go sing "God save the Queen"..  |
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Post by Lastride on Sept 20, 2007 15:10:44 GMT -5
Hey now...leave the queen outta this lawyer boy |
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Post by BoNeHeD on Sept 20, 2007 23:48:37 GMT -5
The U.S. Navy aircraft carrier USS Theodore Roosevelt is on the move in Atlantic Ocean and is possibly headed towards the Mediterranean Sea. The convergence of three carrier groups in the corridor of the Middle East will send very strong message to the Syrians and Iranians. There are indications that soon US is moving two more aircraft carrier battle groups to the Eastern Mediterranean Sea and the Persian Gulf. This will spell a formidable strike force for Iran and Syria who are in defiance on issues of Lebanon and Nuclear weapons development.
Outbound from Singapore, the USS Carl Vinson is currently crossing the Indian Ocean headed towards Middle-East. This will be the first time since February 2004 that US will have three major carrier groups stationed on and around Middle East.
Each of these carrier groups carry nearly 85 aircrafts and is capable of deliver precision-guided munitions. In addition there are anti-submarine aircrafts, airborne-early-warning and rotary-wing aircrafts. Because in the air refueling capabilities these aircrafts can operate from a long distance. The carrier groups are independent and can operate indefinitely.
U.S. military air bases in Turkey, Qatar, the United Arab Emirates and Indian Ocean island of Diego Garcia and the three carrier groups will create a formidable force far superior to any military in the region.
In addition more than 100,000 battle hardened force in Iraq will be another major force in case US has to use force against Iran and Syria.
It seems American are preparing to deal with Syria and Iran in the next several months. The first priority right now is diplomacy in association with the Europeans and the rest of the world. But the leadership in Teheran and Damascus are taking notice of the power build up in the region.
There are seeds of democracy in Lebanon, Iran and Syria. The whole regions is getting a quick lesson on the benefits of democracy.
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